United Kingdom Employment Appeal Tribunal

APPEARANCES

 

For the Appellant	MS GEMMA WHITE (of Counsel) Messrs Harbottle & Lewis Solicitors Hanover House 14 Hanover Square London W1R 0BE
For the Respondents	MR BRYAN COOPER (Representative)


 


Miss Gemma White: Will you give this tribunal your full name

Mr Abramson: Lawrence Howard Abramson

Miss Gemma White: Mr Abramson can I ask you to refer to page 6A of the bundle of documents before you. Is this your letter?

Mr Abramson: Yes it is.

Miss Gemma White: You say I the second paragraph of this letter:

"We enclose for filing a Notice of Appeal ..."

etc. What did you think you were doing by this?

Mr Abramson: I was filing a Notice of Appeal to commence the appeal process against the order of the Industrial Tribunals. As I recall, I had a draft Notice of Appeal back from Counsel two days before. I had it put on our word-processing system. As I recall in between getting the Notice of Appeal back from Counsel, I had a letter from the Industrial Tribunals informing me that a costs application was being made by the respondent and we got the letter of appeal back after receipt of that notice at the same time I was telling the Industrial Tribunal that I thought that a costs application ........... completely.

Miss Gemma White: Why did you sent the document to the Industrial Tribunal?

Mr Abramson: I had not taken on an appeal before. Until recently, I have done very little employment work. I had worked at a large firm which was quite specialised in entertainment litigation. We had a separate employment department. So what I had done having got the Notice of Appeal. I had asked my secretary, who I trusted very much, to find out from the Industrial Tribunals where the appeal should be sent. I assumed that it would be in same office because all our dealing in the Industrial Tribunal process have been in the same office. I had thought it to be the same building, although I knew that the Appeal Tribunal was differently constituted in the same way as the Court of Appeal and the Queen's Bench Division are differently constituted but operate under the same central office. So I asked her to check. I also knew that the Industrial Tribunals are a user friendly procedure. I asked her just to check the address and whether we needed any more copy and then signed the letter.

Miss Gemma White: Thank you Mr Abramson.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): Do you have any question to ask Mr Cooper?

Mr Cooper: Yes Sir. Can you tell if you acted for the appellant previously whilst in the employment of Denton Hall?

Mr Abramson: I did.

Mr Cooper: Have you ever received instruction from Mr Alex van Heeren directly or indirectly in any actions related to Mr Kidd previously?

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): What is the purpose of the question?

Mr Cooper: I will make it a point a little bit later. We have already made it in our submissions that Mr van Heeren had influence on these proceedings.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): I think for present purposes, we ought to move on to the relevant issues.

Mr Cooper: The most relevant issue was when Ms Ravenscroft came across to Harbottle & Lewis, given the fact that you have no experience in employment matters, did you ever consider passing Ms Ravenscroft to someone with that employment experience?

Mr Abramson: Yes I did. I only wish I had done. At the time when I moved firms I had come in with a view to building up a practice and was in a department which was not particularly busy which is quite common when you move from one firm to another. At the time that I took on the case for Ms Ravenscroft it was done as a means to building up practice. I felt that I could not justify in those circumstances to offer it to somebody else, although we do have employment specialists who were far more busy than I was, and to take the work on in my place. I felt that it was a user friendly procedure and I had experienced employment specialist counsel and I thought that I would be able to get by. I really wish I had not done that.

Mr Cooper: Could you tell me if Ms Ravenscroft has paid the bills of Harbottle & Lewis?

Mr Abramson: Yes she has. One of the reasons why Ms Ravenscroft transferred her instructions to me from Denton Hall was about the costs. It was felt that the rates Harbottle & Lewis could offer were less than Denton Hall, particularly in my position of building up a practice.

Mr Cooper: Can you tell me if you had any involvement at all during the time the submission for costs went in from the respondents within the next 48 hours, did you have any contact directly or indirectly with Mr van Heeran so he would he have been aware that you were intending to make an appeal?

Mr Abramson: At which time are you asking?

Mr Cooper: From the day that you received the submission for costs from the respondents, which I believe would have been about 17th November. Did you make contact directly or indirectly with Mr van Heeran giving him your view that an appeal would be something that would be forthcoming?

Mr Abramson: I cannot recall. I would not have contacted Mr van Heeran at that time or at any time. I do not want to mislead, that is not to say that I have not had contact with Mr van Heeran, it is just that he would always initiate the contact. I do not want to stray to far into privileged matters, but I think it is fair to say that if I can weigh privilege on one small aspect without weighing privilege over the other matters, I have always dealt with Ms Ravenscroft direct and encouraged to keep her dealing with me direct. I cannot say that Ms Ravenscroft did not pass the letters of appeal or the costs documents to Mr van Heeran.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): Did you consider that there would be a notice of appeal form which should be used?

Mr Abramson: I considered that what I received back from Counsel was what I filed. In the same way as a notice of appeal that I got in the Court of Appeal.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): Do you have a Butterworths Employment Law Handbook or Harvey.

Mr Abramson: Yes. I have to accept it was perfectly possible to have found the correct procedure. There is a library.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): You could have asked Counsel.

Mr Abramson: I could have asked Counsel. I could have looked it up in the library. I could have asked another employee. Calling at the Court and asking how many copies and addressees is something which happens an awful lot in practice.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): You know, do you not, from your experience of dealing with High Court matters, where you want to lodge a Notice of Appeal that there are time limits for appealing. There is a risk that if you do not lodge your Notice of Appeal within time there is going to a problem.

Mr Abramson: Yes. I do not shrink from that. It is my mistake. I cannot say anymore than that. What I did I have done several times before as a solicitor. But at the end of day it is my responsibility to get in right. But it was a mistake. It was not some ground of conspiracy designed to delay matters.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): What you do with a Notice of Appeal to the Court of Appeal. How would you express it when you are presenting an appeal to the Court of Appeal what are you doing when you send them the document, what are you asking them to do with it?

Mr Abramson: I am commencing the appellate process.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): You lodge it do you not?

Mr Abramson: I file it.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): Do you regard those as interchangeable?

Mr Abramson: Yes I do. I differentiate between file and serve. I consider serving the document on the other party to litigation, but lodging or filing I regard as interchangeable. I would consider serving a Notice of Appeal as to like of file to the court as served on the other party.

MR JUSTICE MORISON (PRESIDENT): "We enclose for filing a Notice of Appeal" are the words that are used. Did you draft this letter yourself?

Mr Abramson: Yes.