CHANCERY DIVISION
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Strand. London. WC2A 2LL |
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B e f o r e :
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THE CODEMASTERS SOFTWARE COMPANY LIMITED |
Claimant |
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- and - |
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AUTOMOBILE CLUB DE L'OUEST |
Defendant |
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6th Floor, 12-14 New Fetter Lane, London EC4A 1 AG.
Telephone No: 020 7936 6000 Fax No: 020 7427 0093 DX: 410 LDE
Email: info@martenwalshcherer.com
Website: www.martenwalshcherer.com
Mr. Michael Hicks (instructed by Messrs Wragge & Co. LLP) for the Defendant
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Crown Copyright ©
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD :
Introduction
The factual matrix
The Agreement
"Subject to the provisions of this Agreement, ACO hereby grants to Codemasters and Codemasters hereby accepts from ACO the non-exclusive right and license in the Territory to and to authorize other persons (including Affiliates, third party publishers, distributors and manufacturers) to use and reproduce the Endorsements in and in connection with the Commercial Exploitation of Endorsed Products during the Term."
"Codemasters will be authorized to use audio works, still images, photographs, and drawings included in the Endorsement either as part of the Game or for its promotion and for its web site and documents, provided ACO is the owner of the intellectual property rights."
"Codemasters will be entitled to use for the Game photographs and still images of cars, pilots, and sponsors, pilot's names and likeness, cars, car's liveries, teams' names and car branded models, and track sponsors, including any logos and trademarks associated with such cars, cars' liveries, or the cars' manufacturers, pilots, and sponsors who participated in the 2006 races and Championship."
It is not necessary to read the rest of clause 4.5.
"10.1. ACO represents, warrants and covenants to Codemasters that:
(i) has the legal right to enter into this Agreement, to fully perform all its obligations hereunder, and to grant all rights and licenses which it is granting under this Agreement, free, clear and unencumbered, and without violating or breaching the legal equitable or contractual rights of any person anywhere in the world;
(ii) the use and reproduction of the Endorsements as authorized hereunder will not infringe, violate or breach any intellectual or industrial property or moral right (or any rights of a similar nature) anywhere in the world.
10.2. Codemasters covenants, represents and warrants that it has the right and authority to enter into this Agreement and to perform all obligations provided for hereunder.
10.3. Each party (the 'Indemnifying Party') will indemnify, defend and hold harmless the other party and its affiliates, parent companies, subsidiaries, and their respective directors, officers and employees, from any and all claims, causes of action, suits, damages or demands whatsoever, arising out of any breach or alleged breach of any agreement or warranty made by the indemnifying Party pursuant to this Agreement."
The dispute
The law
"The fact that a particular construction leads to a very unreasonable result must be a relevant consideration. The more unreasonable the result the more unlikely it is that the parties can have intended it, and if they do intend it the more necessary it is that they shall make that intention abundantly clear."
"The key authorities on the relevant principles begin with Biggin & Co. Ltd v Permanite Ltd [1951] 2 KB 314. There the plaintiffs purchased goods for a purpose know to the seller, namely resale to a particular buyer. The goods delivered were defective and the sub-buyer claimed damages against the plaintiffs. That claim was referred to arbitration. A settlement was made in the sub-buyer's favour for £43,000. The plaintiffs claimed the amount of that settlement from the sellers. Mr. Justice Devlin held that the settlement was irrelevant and evidence of it inadmissible. The Court of Appeal reversed his judgment. Lord Justice Somervell, having referred to the direction to the jury by Lord Coleridge in Fisher v Val de Travers (1876) 45 LJ (CP) 479 where the plaintiff relied on a settlement of a third party's claim, by which two questions were left - were the plaintiffs acting reasonably in reaching a compromise? and was the amount of the compromise reasonable? - commented that the two questions were really one - was the compensation reasonable? - continued at p. 321:
'I think that the judge here was wrong in regarding the settlement as wholly irrelevant. I think, though it is not conclusive, that the fact that it is admittedly an upper limit would lead to the conclusion that, if reasonable, it should be taken as the measure. The result of the judge's conclusion is that the plaintiffs must prove their damages strictly to an extent to show that they equal or exceed 43,000L; and that if that involves, as it would here, a very complicated and expensive inquiry, still that has to be done. The law in my opinion, encourages reasonable settlements, particularly where, as here, strict proof would be a very expensive matter. .... '
Lord Justice Singleton said this (p. 324):
'The claim of the plaintiffs was for damages. They said that the damages should be the sum of 43,000L, the amount of the settlement, which t hey claimed was reasonable. They did not ask for more. The plaintiffs must prove t heir damages. It is not enough for them to say: 'We were advised to settle for 43,000, we did so, and we now claim that sum'. Before the court can award a sum as damages, there must be evidence on which it can act. Therefore, in a case such as this, the plaintiffs must call evidence to establish their case. If the evidence which they call satisfies the judge or jury that the settlement was a reasonable one, the damages awarded will be the amount of the settlement and the cost s reasonably incurred. ... The plaintiffs must establish a prima facie case that the settlement was a reasonable one. If the defendants fail to shake that case, the amount of the settlement can properly be awarded as damages. The position is much the same, though perhaps not quite so strong, as in the case in which damages have been assessed in a suit between other parties involving the same facts. The judgment is not binding, but the court will not lightly disregard it in the absence of fresh evidence or new factors.'
The effect of these judgments is, in my view, that, assuming that loss attributable to a payment in settlement is not too remote, the plaintiff must prove that the fact and amount of the settlement were reasonable in all the circumstances. Unless he proves that, he fails to establish that the loss was caused by the relevant breach of contract by the defendant, for it and to the extent that an unreasonable settlement has been entered into, the loss has been caused not by the breach but by the plaintiffs voluntary assumption of liability under the settlement. Proving the existence of the settlement thus goes only part of the way to proving the recoverable loss. It would also be consistent with the duty to mitigate a loss to hold that if and to the extend that a plaintiff is unable to establish that the settlement on which he founds his claim has been reasonably entered into, he has to that extent failed to mitigate his loss.
A broadly similar problem came before the Court of Appeal in Comyn Ching & Co. (London) Ltd v Oriental Tube Co. Ltd (1979) 17 BLR 56. The defendants had given to the plaintiffs a guarantee of the suitability of a particular product for a particular purpose in order to induce the plaintiffs to install that product in construction works for which the plaintiffs had contracted with a third party. The guarantee was held to indemnify the plaintiffs against all claims and liabilities in consequence of their using the product. Head contractors and the employer sued the plaintiff alleging that their losses were caused by negligent workmanship by the plaintiffs. In the course of the trial the head contractors and the plaintiff settled the employer's claim. The plaintiffs then sued the defendants on the guarantee to recover the amount of the settlement. The trial Judge held that the product was unsuitable for the purpose, the plaintiffs were not guilty of bad workmanship and the use of the product by the plaintiffs would not have continued if the defendants had not guaranteed its suitability. The Judge held that the defendants were not liable.
It was argued in the Court of Appeal on behalf of the defendants that they were not liable under the indemnity unless the plaintiffs were legally liable in respect of the claims settled, alternatively that the indemnity could not cover a claim which had no reasonable prospect of success. In reversing the trial Judge the Court of Appeal held that the indemnity covered 'all reasonable claims or all claims having a reasonable prospect of success,' per Lord Justice Goff at p. 80, or 'a claim which had some prospect of a significant chance of success', per Lord Justice Brandon at p. 92. Further, Lord Justice Goff held that the plaintiffs were 'facing a serious claim and an appreciable risk of failing on the issue' of bad workmanship. The plaintiff had to show that the employer 'had a case or might reasonably have established a case', per Lord Justice Goff at p. 83. He applied the double test indicated by the Court of Appeal in Biggin v Permanite, sup. Lord Justice Brandon stated at p. 92 that a loss would be sustained in consequence of a claim if it arose from a reasonable settlement of that claim.
In other words, when properly analysed, the overall exercise which the Court must do is to consider whether the specified eventuality (in the case of an indemnity) or the breach of contract (in a case such as the present) has caused the loss incurred in satisfying the settlement. Unless the claim is of sufficient strength reasonably to justify a settlement and the amount paid in settlement is reasonable having regard to the strength of the claim, it cannot be shown that the loss has been caused by the relevant eventuality or breach of contract. That is not to say that unless it can be shown that the claim is likely to succeed it will be impossible to establish that it was reasonable to settle it. There may be many claims which appear to be intrinsically weak but which common produce suggests should be settled in order to avoid the uncertainties and expenses of litigation. Even the successful defence of a claim in complex litigation is likely to involve substantial irrevocable costs."
"The word 'indemnity' is likewise used in two senses. It may mean simply damages awarded for tort or breach of contract. I suspect that Mr. Justice Donaldson was using the word in that sense in A/B Helsingfors Steamship Co. Ltd v Rederiakiebolaget Rex [1969] 2 Lloyd's Rep 52 at p. 60, where he said of cl. 13 in the Baltime charter:
The indemnity afforded by this clause is clearly wide enough to cover loss incurred by reasonable settlement.
.....
Alternatively, the word 'indemnity' may refer to all loss suffered which is attributable to a specified cause, whether or not it was in the reasonable contemplation of the parties. There is precious little authority to support such a meaning, but I do not doubt that the word is often used in that sense."
The issues
an indemnity against third party claims and it makes commercial sense for it to be read in that way
"Wragge & Co. LLP has asked me to give some examples where the indemnity (given the construction in paragraph 22(a))" - which is, I interpolate, ACO's construction - "may be effective.
Example 1: The ACO enters into a contract with one of its sponsors which states that a certain image has to appear at a certain position and in a certain manner on the track. The ACO uses the wrong image. The sponsor makes a claim against the ACO for breach of contract, and seeks to join Codemasters into the dispute, because they have replicated the wrong image in the game. In that situation, it makes sense that the ACO would indemnify Codemasters as a result and has control over the complaint.
Example 2: Codemasters' game infringes someone's copyright. A retailer is sued for infringement, and makes a claim against Codemasters for breach of the warranty of quiet enjoyment. The retailer also seeks to include the ACO as a defendant to the proceedings on the basis that it is jointly responsible for the publication of the game. In those circumstances, it would seem reasonable to me for Codemasters to indemnity the ACO and have control over the dispute."
Conclusion
Consequences
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: What next?
MR. CUDDIGAN: My Lord, should we look at the draft minute and, in particular, the directions? I think we all know where we want to get to. With the best will in the world, we should be able to navigate a pathway without too much difficulty.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. CUDDIGAN: There is an order behind tab 2. The first recites that the particular paragraphs that put up the construction defence to the indemnity claim be struck out. That may not actually be necessary by the declarations and the judgment, but that is why it is there.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: I have to say that I think it makes more sense to give you summary judgment on the issue of construction.
MR. CUDDIGAN: That would be entirely acceptable and, as you suggest, perhaps a neater approach. We have an order that summary judgment be given on the issue of construction of the clause 10.3 indemnity.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Correct.
MR. CUDDIGAN: That then leaves the question of whether any further declaratory relief is appropriate in relation to the specific allegations made by third party manufacturers. I would say that that relief is appropriate. I would commend the draft at paragraph 2 to my Lord to the end. It could be phrased: "With respect to clause 10.3". That might be more consistent with just giving summary judgment on the construction of that clause.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes. I would have thought that that would be better. I am going to wait to hear what Mr. Hicks has to say.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: I would have thought something that is more clearly tied in with 10.3 would be more appropriate.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Certainly the third declaration is more clearly tied in with 10.3.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Perhaps that can be (inaudible due to coughing and sneezing) I do not need both of them. So long as I can go forward on the basis of the judgment, matters of causation can recover in respect of those losses.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Again, one has to be a bit careful about the wording. A declaration that you are entitled to an indemnity is apt to beg questions ----
MR. CUDDIGAN: Yes, it is.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: ---- as to how far that goes. It is more a question of "these are claims within the scope of clause 10.3". I am not drafting when I say that.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Indeed. That is more in line with paragraph 2 actually.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Paragraph 2 refers to clause 10.3 expressly. Perhaps that can ----
MR. JUSITCE ARNOLD: I would have thought that you wanted to combine the two ----
MR. CUDDIGAN: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: ---- into one.
MR.
MR. CUDDIGAN: In any event, we have the benefit of your Lordship's very clear judgment. I think that will assist us going forward if there are any difficulties. We are plainly not going to be saying that we have won more than we have won; this was just about the construction and left the issues of causation for another day. I think I should probably let my Lord hear what my learned friend says.
JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. HICKS: My Lord, I would agree that the summary judgment is on a point of construction a better approach. I am concerned about the declarations and, in particular, modifying them on the hoof, so to speak. The problem is that they may build into them such which are not within your Lordship's judgment. At the moment, my view is that it is probably better just to leave it with your Lordship's judgment. That would be the normal course if this had been done in the course of a hearing because one would then have gone on to consider damages. It may be that we can agree some form of order which encapsulates your Lordship's judgment. I am concerned about doing that. It may generate more heat than light and it would have been better just to look at the judgment to decide issues rather than trying to summarise them in a few paragraphs.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: I am sympathetic with that up to a point. I entirely agree that one has to be careful in making declarations not to go further than the judgment warrants and not to trespass into issues that are not before me today and are for another day. I am totally with you to that extent. On the other hand, I do think that it ought to be possible to summarise the effect of the judgment in a pithy way. If one grants summary judgment on the interpretation of clause 10.3,1 would have thought it ought to be possible, as indeed both of you really did do in different paragraphs of your respective skeleton arguments, to summarise the construction of clause 10.3 which I pronounced in favour of.
MR. HICKS: With that indication, I think my learned friend and I can probably agree something (inaudible). Perhaps we can —
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: What I am suggesting, in other words, is a declaration that "clause 10.3 is to be interpreted as meaning" ----
MR. HICKS: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: ---- and then setting out the construction that I have pronounced in favour of.
MR. HICKS: We will work on that over the next few days.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Your Honour, I think the next issue is costs.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. CUDDIGAN: We have provided a summary assessment to the other side, which I will hand up. The costs on this application have been very substantial. For our side, this has been a very important application because it will have had the effect of enormously restricting the scope of what was required of us in this action in order to recover our losses. In particular, my Lord, I refer to what would have been for us to plead and prove a myriad of third party IP rights. It is in relation to that danger that we have approached this application. The costs are very substantial. If my Lord considers that they are too highly assessed summarily, then we would be very happy to take a payment on account and proceed to detailed assessment in relation to the remainder.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: I have to say that my immediate reaction is that that is a better way forward, and for two reasons. First of all, the amount claimed does strike me as being rather high. Secondly, I am quite sure that what Mr. Hicks is going to say is that quite a lot of these costs are not attributable purely to the issue of construction that I have determined but to other issues in the proceedings.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Those are the costs on this application as opposed to anything else that preceded this application in these proceedings. By way of comparison, my learned friend's costs are just under half that, £75,000. If one compares the difference in the extent of the evidence, then that would provide a basis for the discrepancy. Certainly we would be happy with a payment on account. The remainder can be subject to detailed assessment. We would suggest a payment on account of approximately half the bill.
MR. ARNOLD: Right.
MR. HICKS: The problem with (inaudible) costs application is that if it goes off to assessment, it is going to be difficult for the person doing this to estimate how relevant any of the work was to this application. I dare say that it may be possible to justify, which it would be, and say "all those hours". Let us assume that they were all spent in relation to this application. That does not tell you whether they were useful hours in relation to the application.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Quite.
MR. HICKS: That is a fundamental problem with this. What we would say is that just looked at objectively, we have had a short hearing on not the easiest point of construction but primarily a legal argument. The evidence has not been helpful except to verify what was said in relation to this application. If one looks at the amount of time, for example, spent on the documents, just on the second page (inaudible due to coughing) it might be better for your Lordship to say that this sort of application simply cannot be worth that sort of cost of the expenditure.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: I am sympathetic to that up to a point. I think the problem is this. Look at Mr. Hansen-Chambers as a prime example. What you are saying is that Codemasters did not need that statement to win the issue on construction, therefore they should not recover the costs of the preparation of that statement. Let us just assume for the moment that you are right about that.
MR. HICKS: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Nevertheless, it does not follow that the preparation of that statement is wasted expenditure. That may well form a large chunk of the evidence that they lead on the damages enquiry. Actually, it covers an awful lot of the ground that they are going to need to cover. What they are going to do is probably just supplement it a bit.
MR. HICKS: The problem then is that it would be wrong for me to have to pay those costs.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: To be sure. Equally, it would be wrong to say that they bear those costs regardless of what happens hereafter.
MR. HICKS: Quite. I respectfully agree. The difficulty is that if the costs of this application go to be assessed, that effectively means me picking up those costs even if they will subsequently be re-used at the trial. Of course, if the sums were small, we would not be worrying about it so much. With such large sums, the danger is that by a side wind, there will be an unfair order in relation to those £77,000. One approach is simply to say that I think the figure that is reasonable from this application is such and such an amount and the rest can be dealt with as part of the costs of the case on assessment but without directing that there should (inaudible due to coughing) or another ----
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: So what you are saying is that they get half of their costs now and half in the case.
MR. HICKS: The trouble is that we do not know whether that £77,000 is going to be completely wasted or not. That is the concern I have. It is such a large sum of money that it may be that if it is re-used, then of course it would become part of the costs of the case. If it is not re-used, and a completely new witness statement comes out, as may well be the case, then I end up paying for those but by a side wind.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Given that you have said my suggestion is no good, what is your suggestion?
MR. HICKS: My suggestion is that you come to a figure, or a proportion of this, which you think will be a reasonable amount for a payment in respect of this application, and I am accepting a loss on this application for the purpose of that, so there should be some costs to pay. One can either reserve those costs for the trial judge so that he can review the position or they would just have to pay the costs in the case subject to the normal rules of assessment. When it comes to assessment, somebody can look to see how much has been re-used. There has to be a direction from your Lordship, but that is something that should be done bearing in mind the very substantial costs (inaudible).
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: All right.
MR. HICKS: Looked at objectively, we say this application cannot be worth more than about tens of thousands of pounds. Looked at objectively, one asks oneself what was reasonably necessary for success in this sort of application.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Thank you.
MR. CUDDIGAN: I can respond to that point. The first thing is that apparently £75,000 of costs have been reasonably necessary in defending the application.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: That does not necessarily follow.
MR. CUDDIGAN: That must be an important yardstick. Moreover, the evidence that we put before your Lordship would have been a good deal more necessary in front of a judge not experienced in IP law. My Lord is very experienced in IP law and, therefore, a lot of the background information was not a matter that you drew a lot from. In front of a general chancery judge, and we could have easily been in front of a general chancery judge without experience of intellectual property, that matter would have been enormously more necessary and more helpful. We do not know which judge we are going to come up with, so that was the justification to make sure that we had the material in front of the judge, all the material, to construe the contract. If the judge felt that there was some aspect of the matrix of fact that was absent, then the rug could have been pulled from the whole application. We were very careful in preparing the evidence to make sure that there was nothing contentious in it and that everything that could have been relevant to the matrix in fact was before your Lordship.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Again, my Lord, as I say, the repercussions from losing this application in terms of the scope of the trial would have been calamitous. I dread to think how long the trial would have to have been if we had to prove all the IP infringements. That goes a long way to justify how seriously we took this application and the resources we devoted to it.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes. What about the point that I put to Mr. Hicks that you have actually done now - I am not saying by any means all the work - quite a lot of the work in preparing evidence for the next stage?
MR. CUDDIGAN: I absolutely accept that. In any event, we are very well advanced and we have a lot of evidence already assembled, in fact nearly enough, we would say, to conclude that the claims are reasonable; but not enough to conclude that the settlement agreement is reasonable but the claims are. We are well advanced in relation to that. I accept that those costs could be divided out. In any event, it must be left open to me to recover them if and when I win on quantum. They are properly incurred in relation to that issue. I am happy to have them split out, as long as I can get them in the end and as long as I can get a reasonable payment in relation to my success in this application.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Suppose I do what I suggest, and that is to say that I give you half of your costs now and make the other half costs in the case? If I proceed on that basis, do you then want a summary assessment of the half I am giving you now?
MR. CUDDIGAN: My Lord, yes.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Anything else, either of you?
MR. CUDDIGAN: No.
MR. HICKS: No.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD:
1. I now have to consider the costs of this application. Codemasters seeks its costs of the application, having been successful, and seeks a summary assessment of those costs in support of which it has put before me a costs schedule in the grand total of £164,560.
2. Counsel for ACO accepted that in principle ACO was liable to pay the costs of the application having failed, but submitted that the work that had been done in preparing for the application on Codemasters' side had gone well beyond what was necessary. In particular, he submitted that the work that had been done preparing the evidence for the application had gone well beyond what was necessary, given that the issue with which the court was concerned was a short point of construction which did not require much by way of factual matrix to enable the court to decide.
3. In my judgment, there is substance in that point. As I think counsel for Codemasters was disposed to accept, the evidence adduced by Codemasters in support of the application did not simply do the necessary exercise of setting out the factual matrix relevant to the issue of construction but instead went a considerable way towards setting out, albeit in reasonably non-contentious terms, Codemasters' case and evidence in relation to the dispute as a whole.
4. In my view, the work that was done by Codemasters and the consequent expenditure was disproportionate in relation to the issue that I have decided today, that is to say the construction of clause 10.3. By that, I do not mean that it was disproportionate in relation to the dispute as a whole. I am concerned that if I were to award all of the costs claimed by Codemasters and, in particular, in the amount claimed, then the effect would be unreasonable because it would be requiring ACO to pay at this stage costs much of which are really attributable, as I see it, to work that will be of great use to Codemasters in later stages of the proceedings.
5. There is no ideal answer as to how to deal with that difficulty, but the conclusion I have reached is that I will make an order that ACO pay 50% of Codemasters' costs of the application. The remaining 50% of Codemasters' costs of the application will be costs in the case. So far as the 50% that are to be Codemasters' in any event, I will make a summary assessment of those. Other than the points that I have already made, no particular points were made on the costs schedule. Looking at it in the round, I will summarily assess the 50% in the sum of £70,000.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Payment within 14 days?
MR. HICKS: I do not actually have any instructions that I can perhaps put forward, but could I ask you to say 28 days? My clients are in France and I am instructed through French lawyers.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: The fact that they are in France does not seem to me to be a problem. The fact that you are being instructed through French lawyers, I appreciate, can slow things down, which I do not mean as an aspersion on them; it is just simply that every extra step in the chain of communication always slows things down.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Can we split the difference and say 21 days?
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes, 21 days.
MR. HICKS: There are two issues. There was my application to amend the defence and my application for disclosure. I think it is probably sensible if we could just have permission to restore those (inaudible due to coughing).
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Yes.
MR. HICKS: Then there is the question of permission to appeal. I would ask your Lordship for permission to appeal this issue on the point of construction (inaudible) and one
that is arguable in my submission and one which (inaudible due to coughing) a realistic and a real prospect of success (inaudible).
MR. CUDDIGAN: My Lord, in relation to that, I would simply say that my Lord has found that the opposing construction was not tenable throughout your judgment.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: There were certain aspects of it which I said were untenable. I did not say that in respect of the main point.
MR. CUDDIGAN: The main point being "pursuant to", that was not consistent with any commercial objective, as was clear form your Lordship's judgment in relation to the evidence and the examples put forward. In those circumstances, I would say that there is not a realistic prospect of success of the appeal and there should be no permission.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: So far as the question of permission to appeal is concerned, I will give permission to appeal on the basis that whilst some of the points that were advanced I do not think had a reasonable prospect of success, the main point of construction is one that I think is arguable. Therefore, it would not be right to shut ACO out purely on the basis of refusing them permission.
MR. CUDDIGAN: My Lord, we have a trial window in December which, on our side, we are anxious to make use of in relation to the indemnities. That may conflict with an appeal if the appeal proceeds at the normal speed. I am not entirely sure what my Lord is able to do to assist with ----
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Nothing.
MR. CUDDIGAN: That is what I anticipated.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: It would be up to ACO to apply for expedition.
MR. CUDDIGAN: Then there is nothing more I need ask you for.
MR. JUSTICE ARNOLD: Obviously, for the avoidance of doubt, that application has to go to the Court of Appeal and not to me. Is there anything else?
MR. CUDDIGAN: No.
MR. HICKS: No.
MR. JUSTICE AROLD: Thank you both.